Settings discussion

[SevenSpirits]

Here is what I wrote in the main thread as settings choices to vote on:

Settings vote. Please each team vote once.

Based on what I've read so far I think AW will be on. Please vote for other options as if it is. If we end up voting no AW, we can redo other votes that depended on it.

I'm also assuming based on what people have said that we are going with some sort of snake pick for leader/civ assignment, and not just letting each team choose freely and allowing duplicates. Again, vote for other options as though this will be the case, and if we decide otherwise, we will redo those votes.

Locked-in settings:
Sequential team turns pitboss, ancient start, no vassal states, no goody huts, no random events, no tech trading, no communication with other teams. Trades with other teams allowed IF we don't choose always war.

GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War (Yes/No)?
Handicap level (Deity/Immortal/Other)?
Game Speed (Quick/Normal)?
Banned Wonders (Specify if any)?
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)?
Barbarians (Off/On/Raging)?

MAP INSTRUCTIONS
Approx. Map Type (Lakes/Other)?
Circumnavigation available* (Yes/No)?
Map wrap (None/Cylinder/Toroid/Up to Plako)?
Natural vs Only good land?
Mirrored (Completely/With minor differences/Capitals only/No)?
If not mirrored, Fair vs Random**?

TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)?
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***?
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****?
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)?

LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)?
See starts before pick (yes/no)?
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)?
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)?
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)?
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)?

PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes?
Time limit?
New random seed on reload, right?


Let me know if I forgot anything we need to discuss. This has been a much harder list to come up with than usual so I wouldn't be surprised if I did. Btw, let me mention 2 things we often ban but I didn't include in my list of suggested bans.
1) Blockades. Every game I've played in so far, blockades were a fun part of the game, or would have been if they'd been allowed. Naval stuff is already not important as you can tell by people completely ignoring naval techs as long as possible. With blockades allowed at least it's a bit more important. IMO people really overreact to not being able to work coast tiles when an enemy fleet has control of the waters near their city. There is one situation where I would ban blockades, and that is in a simultaneous turns PB game (which this is not!). Problem there is the usual turn split issue, making it so that if first person in turn order gets blockaded by second, they can't reassign their tiles, which is really unfair.
2) Corporations. Well, I like there to be at least a bit of competition for state property. And corporations don't even get used in the majority of games where they are enabled, so I am quite unconvinced they are overpowered. (Yes, it's because they come late in the game and are a big investment then... that's the point!) However, I do feel obligated to mention that in a team game, one player can gift extra corp fuel to the other, which would help one team member have really powerful corp benefits.


* Question assumes water level will be approx 33%, otherwise this is not easily controlled.

** Fair means intended to be balanced without being mirrored. Random means as if generated by a script. This is a continuum. Question is moot to the extent that the map is mirrored.

***If I've ended turn and offer my partner gpt and he accepts, he gets the gpt that turn and I don't lose it. So that's generating money out of thin air and clearly overpowered. Note that the trade can be undone the next turn by offering back an equal GPT trade in the other direction, so you aren't even locked into 10t of anything. Similarly you can get a free happy (or other benefit of a resource) by trading away a happy resource after ending turn so both players get the benefit on the same turn. But this is a much smaller issue because you are locked into 10t after the trade.

****Another way of stopping the GPT abuse mentioned just above is to ban GPT. GPT gifts can also be abused by letting one partner strike for a few turns (which carries next to no penalty) while the other one gets money from them. On the other hand, forcing people to gift lump sums of gold every turn if they want an arrangement like that is a bit silly. My preference is to disallow trading gpt/resources when one partner has ended turn and the other hasn't, and also to ban abuse of strike mechanics, but to allow normal gpt trades.

[SevenSpirits]

(busy right now, will post my opinion later.)

[Ichabod]

My choices:

Settings vote. Please each team vote once.

Based on what I've read so far I think AW will be on. Please vote for other options as if it is. If we end up voting no AW, we can redo other votes that depended on it.

I'm also assuming based on what people have said that we are going with some sort of snake pick for leader/civ assignment, and not just letting each team choose freely and allowing duplicates. Again, vote for other options as though this will be the case, and if we decide otherwise, we will redo those votes.

Locked-in settings:
Sequential team turns pitboss, ancient start, no vassal states, no goody huts, no random events, no tech trading, no communication with other teams. Trades with other teams allowed IF we don't choose always war.

GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War (Yes/No)? Yes
Handicap level (Deity/Immortal/Other)? Deity - I just think it'd be interested to see a game where expanding isn't alway the bvious right choice. Deity fills in this purpose very well, I think. Not a strong feeling, though.
Game Speed (Quick/Normal)? Normal - I think it favours warfare.
Banned Wonders (Specify if any)? Cannot think of anyone that needs banning. SoZ is irrelevant in a AW game, isn't it? What were the banned wonders in PB6? I seem to recall there were some solid reasoning for those bans.
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)? Maybe blockade's with galleys and trirremes? I can see Seven's reasoning for no-blockade ban, but I'm not sure otehr teams would agree. Maybe this way we can reach a compromise.
Barbarians (Off/On/Raging)? Off

MAP INSTRUCTIONS
Approx. Map Type (Lakes/Other)? Lakes. I think the most interesting games so far were played in lake scripts.
Circumnavigation available* (Yes/No)? No. It's a benefit that has too much of a random chance of being gained.
Map wrap (None/Cylinder/Toroid/Up to Plako)? Up to Plako. All the teams bordering each other would probably be best, though.
Natural vs Only good land? Natural. Again, makes expansion not always the obvious choice.
Mirrored (Completely/With minor differences/Capitals only/No)? Capitals Only
If not mirrored, Fair vs Random**? Fair. Could be random, but I think random suits more to a game with more players, like PB7.

TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER - Defer to Seven on all of these.
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)?
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***?
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****?
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)?

LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)? Yes
See starts before pick (yes/no)? Yes
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)? Yes
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)? Yes
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)? 4321123443214321
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)? India, Inca, Pacal, Willem

PITBOSS STUFF - Complicated stuff, don't want to think about it right now.
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes?
Time limit?
New random seed on reload, right?

[SevenSpirits]

My choices:

GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War (Yes/No)? Yes
Handicap level (Deity/Immortal/Other)? Deity if cylinder, Immortal if Toroid
Game Speed (Quick/Normal)? Quick
Banned Wonders (Specify if any)? No (but could be convinced)
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)? Just those three
Barbarians (Off/On/Raging)? Off

MAP INSTRUCTIONS
Approx. Map Type (Lakes/Other)? Lakes
Circumnavigation available* (Yes/No)? No
Map wrap (None/Cylinder/Toroid/Up to Plako)? Cylinder or Toroid: up to Plako
Natural vs Only good land? Natural
Mirrored (Completely/With minor differences/Capitals only/No)? No
If not mirrored, Fair vs Random**? Fair

TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)? First turn only
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***? not if includes resources or gpt
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****? yes
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)? not if it's avoidable with partner's help

LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)? Yes
See starts before pick (yes/no)? Yes
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)? Yes
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)? Yes
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)? 4321432143214321
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)? Those four

PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes? No formal process, just common courtesy
Time limit? Don't care
New random seed on reload, right? Yes

I prefer quick speed because sequential team turns pitboss is about as slow a format as you can get.

I think a blockade "compromise" where galleys and triremes can't blockade is a bit silly. Galley and trireme blockades require the greatest amount of effort to enact (in terms of fraction of empire resources devoted to them) and have the smallest effect (not being able to work coast tiles in the ancient and classical eras? who cares). That said if it's necessary to get people to agree to blockades I guess I prefer it to none.

[mackoti]

Agree with all . i would ban juat statue of zeus.

[SevenSpirits]

Any opinions on starting units? My preference is that all players start with just a scout, no warrior.

[Sareln]

Any opinions on starting units? My preference is that all players start with just a scout, no warrior.

Is the problem that if a team takes hunting they get a double-scout start and can get choked off by a double-warrior from another team? Perhaps have hunting teams take a scout/warrior start instead (with the scout on the civ w/ hunting?)

[Krill]

Yeah, pretty much it's the double scout thing. It's generally always correct to never picking a Hunting civ in a teamer game. I would go so far as to say that in a 2 civ team, picking before seeing the start means you want Fiching/Wheel/Agriculture/Mining, picking after seeing the start, Myst/Wheel/Agri/Mining unless you need Fishing T0.