[PB63 Spoilers] - Pindicator Unlocks 10 Year Achievement

[Krill]

Site 3 placement looks good if we settle on copper, I like that we are still grabbing a mountain early for visibility, and I agree that we probably need to have that city working the gold at least sometimes so it doesn't all fall on the copper city's shoulders. I also agree that settle on copper or settle 1N of copper is still an open question.

I am thinking one disincentive for SD to planting a city 1NE of corn is that it makes it impossible for him to fit a city opposite where we have our site 3 on our dotmap. It seems as though it will result in wasted potential; he might put a city 1N of corn instead. Either way I agree that a solid border in the east and conflict in the west makes more sense than going for conflict immediately.

I think we would prefer to put our city 5? 1N of where it is to grab the corn ourselves and to make it easier to fit a city south of there without putting it on a floodplain (would have to be at least 3S or 3S1E of 5? in order to allow a city claiming the marble island), but we'll have to wait and see if SD gives us the opportunity.

The problem is the only food that is not jungled in that are is the corn, and he needs to place his city between the food and us to know he can hold it long term. Just look back at PB62 for the furore that CRE enabled.

If SD tries to be aggressive I suspect he would consider settling 1SE of the corn on "Our" side. But this allows us to settle 1SW of the cows and crush him, and to just walk up to his city with first strike capability. Yes the city is on a hill but the river is wrong, and the cities are too far apart to cover for him without rushing straight to HBR. But even then, he has no reaction time. I think this would be a poor move on his part.

I don't see him pushing the city 1W to grab a filler city location: unless he settles both at the same time he gives us an opportunity to settle 1S of the dye and his entire empire is indefensible. And that filler city is junk unless he settles 1N of the dye, and if he does that then we just settle 1SE of the rice and give him a three city front.

The only defensive city he can plant is 1NE and try to push culture (he would likely need to grow to 2 then whip a monument. We plant minimum distance and then 1 pop whip and chop a library. We win that unless he lands a holy city). One of the advantages is that by planting on that column of tiles he stops us planting on the column including the dye. Plant further east? We grab the corn inner ring. Plant west and we split his cities. Plant 1S? Flat land and we will be able to one move him and culturally swamp him. Plant 1N? We get the corn and that is on silver with no food until IW.

He has to aim for that hill, it is his only choice. It just isn't a very good one, but this is what happens against CRE with cheap libraries.

[Krill]

Actually, what happens if we whip the settler now and then build 2 workers? Settler eot37, then worker eot39 and eot44? The third worker is just too slow because it would complete the deer camp T49. however, what happens if we go worker/settler/worker and delay the whip? worker eot38, settler eot40, worker eot43? That would allow Worker2 to reach the wheat on T41 which is too early.

I just ran this scenario actually.  Worker2 would move south to improve the deer and finishes it t43, same turn as city 3 gets founded.  Worker1 will finish the gold mine for want of something else to do (rather wish I had improved the deer now instead of mining that hill), but ends up getting to the 2nd wheat on t43, a turn too late.  Worker3 I'm not sure what to do with yet; the most inefficient thing is for him to help finish the wheat with worker1 to get it a turn earlier, but more likely he'll be planting road because Wheel finishes T42 here.

Maybe it's better to let worker1 be a turn late.  City2 will be able to share the oasis here, not a great tile but we are starved for commerce a bit.  Or there's your second option, which I need to run through next.

The other choices are just to not whip, or to only 2 pop whip, or even to stack two 2 pop whips. It is worth pointing out that BG does have 4 unique tiles worth working plus the oasis. Also, Worker 1 should be able to mine gold and then still get to the sheep to pasture that on T43 so that at least lines up (even if we still lack the road on the gold that is something).

I believe not whipping would give settler eot40, worker eot43 and eot46? Although loss of wheat would delay one of these a turn.

It doesn't really matter when the settler is finished, because there is still a 3 turn window when it leaves the banana unworked if we triple whip. It's just 6 foodhammer loss that we make up slowly by working an unimproved tile in city 3 (in fact we lose food just by whipping away the oasis and later on growing to the lake.

I think that it is the worker timings which are critical. I don't worry about going for gold over the deer, we couldn't know what was best due to copper location.

What about worker/worker/settler? Actually, eot38, double whip T40, settler is 56/100 on eot41 means singe whip is possible T43 or natural completion T45.

Stacked double whips are interesting, the problem is the amount of overflow we already have. But when all whips give 30 hammers, it makes no difference if we stack double whips or a triple then single whip, it's the same happy hit and we want the timer starting ASAP: Dump overflow into the worker T36 [35/60], build settler T37 [19/100], whip settler T39 [126+12/100], then T40 whip the worker [65+38+10=113/60] and worker eot41 [63/60]. Given that one of whip anger will fall off by the time POttery lands it's not so bad, but tbh, I ain't convinced this is better than keeping a size 6 capital yet.

[pindicator]

Sheep is outside of the BFC if we're settling on the copper.

I was starting to look at double whips but hadn't considered stacking double whips. I think I like getting city 3 down quick because we do have the clams that it can grow to 2 on while a worker improves its deer. Suppose that means we don't have to send worker 2 down to improve the deer straight away as the city does have a tile to work already, so perhaps worker 3 can take care of the deer by the time city3 grows to size two. Also with stacking whips, I do want us to be at at least 4 pop in the capital when we get Pottery, end of T48 or 49, so we can set up a whip into overflowing for the granary. Guess that can be done with a 1 pop whip as well.

Will look at all that in more detail in a little bit. I need to do some actual work for now.

[Krill]

Pffh, actual work, who does that anymore?

TBH I'm not convinced about settling on copper. It opens the door to SD settling 1W of the sheep and we can't stop him. If we were settling on copper we need to send city 3 1NW of the sheep. And we just don't have the units for that.

[Krill]

Comments on micro, because I am bored:

Horse city: It is impossible to get 3 improved tiles ready for when the city grows to size 3 without 2 workers. If the settler is built on EoTX, it settles on TX+3 and we need the deer hooked TX+9 so the worker can be built in the capital EoTX+4. Therefore we would need to overflow 12 hammers from the settler to finish the worker in time, and if the settler is whipped we will always get this (because the capital will always make 12fhpt at size 3).

Therefore it is obvious that the third worker can always be used if we go worker>settler>worker, but if we go settler>worker>worker then we probably have to whip a worker as well.

Copper city: micro is awkward, workers are all in wrong places. If settling on copper T37 then borders pop eot41 and need a worker from capital eot39. If settling 1N need worker eot40. We lose worker turns whatever we do. If settling 1N then worker 1 can improve the sheep eot46 but we have no workers to improve the copper. Could improve copper rather than wheat, in which case the worker timings are far less forgiving (as City2 grows@2 eot42 so need a worker eot37 to improve the copper in time). Worker 1 would improve copper T45 if improving gold first...but nothing stopping City2 working the gold at size 2??

[pindicator]

If we settle 1N of copper then worker2 definitely needs to help with the 2nd city and going worker > settler (whip) > worker makes a lot of sense. My original thought for that would be for worker1 to only put a turn into the gold mine and then be set to improve the copper as soon as the city is founded. He then is set to start connecting the wheat right when the border pops. I think I put more importance on the copper than the gold, and i should still be able to build warriors in the capital until we connect the cities by road ... right?

[Krill]

You know, I had the similar thought for teh worker just moving to the copper on T37 and start mining on T38, but the timing for the wheat never clicked, great catch. It is so much better, I agree completely. Then W1 can return via the eastern gold and mine that, or chop the forest for a granary whilst W2 puts roads in place on the way up to the sheep and W3 supports city3. It all fits so much nicer and the "delay" in hooking copper is irrelevant as a warrior built in city2 will queue upgrade anyway.

[pindicator]

Meetings are done, looking at 1N of the copper now and I'm not sure how we get to the sheep or how the timings of workers 2 and 3 line up now. This is with the capital going worker T38, whip settler T40, worker T43 and Wheel finishing either T42 or 43. Worker1 puts 1 turn into a gold mine on 36 and then moves to Copper 37, mines Copper 41, and then moves to and farms Wheat T47.

Worker2 coming out of the capital on 38, and would take 4 turns to get to the sheep so even if we do waste all those worker turns then sheep is only improved on T46. So worker2 makes more sense to go south to improve the deer for city3 while worker1 takes care of the sheep after improving the wheat. But then city2 has no food tile to grow onto at size 2 until that wheat finishes on 47. I suppose that isn't entirely terrible since we are building our first phalanx anyway, but was that what you were envisioning?

[Krill]

Thoughts: why not just use W2 for the deer, that way W3 can pit roads into tiles on the way to the sheep?

Basically yeah, if we want a decent military unit we are going to have to hand build it and what better way than with a 6 hammer copper tile? If we aren't that worried about needing military then why not just finish the gold and then head to the sheep and use WE to hook copper then wheat? That way we could possibly speed granaries slightly and might be able to one pop whip the phalanx and then build the granary at 2 off overflow.

It's all amorphous at this point, but simply settling 1N stops any funny business from SD settling up on us and the rest is bean counting.

[pindicator]

I believe not whipping would give settler eot40, worker eot43 and eot46? Although loss of wheat would delay one of these a turn.

Oh, is this what you are envisioning?  That would line up better.  Worker2 definitely roads his way north to city2 in this case.