[SPOILER] PB37: Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the most aggressive of them all?

[Krill]

Boudicca is viable. Joey got to this point because no one challenged him, and bother neighbours settled away from him. 150 turns of peace, neighbour luck is real. If he wins this game I'd have to seriously ask: what did he actually do?

I`d just like to point out that we probably did a mistake in allowing Joey the awesome State of Zijin border site between him and us by settling SE with our third city. When we did that I found it kind of hard to believe that a neighbor could settle up on us with both his two first Settlers! Alas, SoZ was founded on a hill with a killing field in front of it so it was always going to be a tough nut to crack.

Also, we got Guilds before Joey and actually planned to take down SoZ at all costs. That city was a thorn in our side. But when Joey responded by stuffing his city with multi-promo Longbows the attack was called off. After that we kind of accepted the border as it was and tried to make ourselves as prickly as we could.

Following the happenings in former China from a distance, I`m slightly puzzled that Joey got so much of that land for himself. Surely, Anchorage alone must have been worth some losses? Not to mention that denying it to Joey could have made it more likely for you to keep up with him.

I had 2 units in my front city when Joey attacked China. Everything was dealing with Couer. Same problem you had, then difference was you didn't stack up and my neighbours did. Neighbour luck. Players that pulled the trigger on commuting resources to military forces neighbours to do the same, and farmers gambits win in the long run.

[RefSteel]

He couldn't attack with a unit on t25, I already calculated that around when I settled AF.

I agree he couldn't - that's your neighbor luck. If your neighbors were switched - if you found you'd moved toward Sury/Otto Gavagai rather than Ventessel, what could you have done?

I don't know how you can think that actually being attacked is a good thing though. Everyone also seems to have missed a major point: if I had settled in place, and settler second city for AF, then how could I defend that city against such an attack that occured? I don't think I could have held a forward city, and I'm fairly sure Gav could have settled.frward before I could due to traits.

[EDIT: Blergh. I wasted a bunch of time writing a bunch of stuff that thirty seconds later I didn't want to have written, and now I'm spending more time making it clearer, which does the opposite of giving me the time back. Bad decision-making on my part! The point is that being attacked was not a good thing for your civ, but your decisions in the game affected other players' decisions, and I strongly suspect that is the reason you were attacked. From your perspective it was bad luck that the neighbor you moved toward responded that way, and that your other neighbor settled toward the empty territory you moved away from; I get that, but I think you had more control than you think over that "luck."]

[Krill]

I agree he couldn't - that's your neighbor luck.  If your neighbors were switched - if you found you'd moved toward Sury/Otto Gavagai rather than Ventessel, what could you have done?

The same, pretty much. Ottomans starting Wheel/Agri, so no risk of an axe rush. The slightly faster worker was irrelevant because of tech constraints.

Because the copper at the start location was not on a river, an axe rush was not an issue. It wasn't luck of what neighbour started next to, it was at best luck of the map maker.

[EDIT:  Blergh.  I wasted a bunch of time writing a bunch of stuff that thirty seconds later I didn't want to have written, and now I'm spending more time making it clearer, which does the opposite of giving me the time back.  Bad decision-making on my part!  The point is that being attacked was not a good thing for your civ, but your decisions in the game affected other players' decisions, and I strongly suspect that is the reason you were attacked.  From your perspective it was bad luck that the neighbor you moved toward responded that way, and that your other neighbor settled toward the empty territory you moved away from; I get that, but I think you had more control than you think over that "luck."]

To be clear, an aggressive reply was expected. I have not stated that Ventessel should have rolled over. What I think any player should expect is a coherent plan. Stacking up chariots and attacking on T65 was not coherent. Spamming out two settlers, chop 3 cheap granaries, and then whip? More likely to succeed, but ultimately the land between AF and the Chinese capital was junk land, no food resources. Military action makes sense only in terms of capturing the city, and this is more likely to work for China if it wasn't the capital, with 40% culture borders, and instead was a quick second city without expanded borders.

Because of that I have a sense that hard teching to catapults as FIN/PRO China was the best thing to do, and this is actually a viable plan given the sheer lack of usable land between the capitals. It also puts pressure on the northern neighbour, as opposed to an insane chariot "rush". And that, RefSteel, is neighbour luck: a newbie would do that, but a vet wouldn't.

[Krill]

And this is no different to how you reacted to SoZ being planted in your face.

[RefSteel]

Okay. If you don't think there's a difference between SoZ as third city and Animal Farm as first, I can agree to disagree. Do you think that what Ventessel did was worse for your civ then what you would have expected from a better player? I don't deny it was worse for his, but I'm not sure what he had left to play for by that point in the game.

[GermanJoey]

Boudicca is viable. Joey got to this point because no one challenged him, and bother neighbours settled away from him. 150 turns of peace, neighbour luck is real. If he wins this game I'd have to seriously ask: what did he actually do?

uhhh................... wtf is this trash talk? and how can you even say this when WE LITERALLY HAD THE SAME NEIGHBOR ?!??

You answered your own question there. Neighbour luck is an accepted thing, ffs China never seemed to move a military unit closer than 7 tiles from their own capital towards you: how could you not accept that is better than having 300 hammers of military thrown at you on t65?

How can you not understand that THEY ATTACKED YOU BECAUSE YOU MOVED SEVEN TILES DIRECTLY TOWARDS THEIR CAPITAL?!? You made your own bed, Krill! Like what would you have done if Agg Zulu dtay was there instead of Ventessel? And you didn't end up with Copper BFC in your moved capital? Just go and complain to Mardoc?

Even after you defended against China, why do you rush out the SoZ, an HE, and (?!?) the SP, and then not do jack shit offensively with your military until like T160 at least. Why didn't you head towards Construction instead of all that other pointless shit and then go clean up China roundabouts 1AD? When you are vastly behind in CY/cities/MFG/power spamming unused wonders seems like the worst possible decision you can make. Hence, you scramble for land and end up 350k power behind Carthage (when their top power was 700k), and they call you on it. Their huge mistake was thinking that there could be such a thing as a casual war and not making plans to follow up. Like a baseball player that gets lobbed an easy one down the middle, they stopped their swing halfway and ended up popping up an easy fly ball to the outfield.

[GermanJoey]

And Joey, congrats on the win. No player can do more than beat the person in front of them, taking advantage of whatever opportunities come their way, and you did it by the book. Wish you'd left me Churchill though.

What book was I following here? I came up with my own strategies here, thanks.

(and no way was I leaving you Churchill after you already picked Inca!)

[GermanJoey]

And this is no different to how you reacted to SoZ being planted in your face.

I actually agree with this here, gonna reply in JR's thread though. The way the Mongols reacted to SoZ was far beyond my wildest hopes and dreams.

[Commodore]

Heh, Joey, it always comes down to neighbor luck. In this case, your luck was Krill tilting in the direction of your neighbor.

[Krill]

Even after you defended against China, why do you rush out the SoZ, an HE, and (?!?) the SP, and then not do jack shit offensively with your military until like T160 at least. Why didn't you head towards Construction instead of all that other pointless shit and then go clean up China roundabouts 1AD? When you are vastly behind in CY/cities/MFG/power spamming unused wonders seems like the worst possible decision you can make. Hence, you scramble for land and end up 350k power behind Carthage (when their top power was 700k), and they call you on it. Their huge mistake was thinking that there could be such a thing as a casual war and not making plans to follow up. Like a baseball player that gets lobbed an easy one down the middle, they stopped their swing halfway and ended up popping up an easy fly ball to the outfield

Interesting decisions, but I'm on a phone so I'll be brief and try to expand later.

SoZ and HE cost 400 hammers and paid back by t115 in hammers, earlier unit builds would have been charitable and axes, construction rush with Oracle would have crippled economy and there were free cities to settle. Aiming to attack China and then from t110 ish Carthage occupied resources, and then rushes and failed to effectively execute an astro rush. Without that distraction China gets eaten. You can ask the same question of Couer, who fought a war pre catapults with CML and then focused on wealth builds.

Also SP was purely for Theo and should have stopped someone thinking that an astro rush was viable.