A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[Tarkeel]

If we're going to buff IND, I'd rather we double down on the national wonder bonus and increase that to 100%. This feels more in line with the rest of CtH.

[Krill]

No the only factors for trade route yield are population and distance between cities

Foreign trade routes, intercontinental trade toutes harbours and custom houses have an effect, no?

[GeneralKilCavalry]

No the only factors for trade route yield are population and distance between cities

Foreign trade routes, intercontinental trade toutes harbours and custom houses have an effect, no?

not the base yield right, those are just multipliers

[Krill]

Oh, yeah, base trade route yield is pop of origin city, receiving city, distance...And ToA?

[Charriu]

Yes I was talking about the base value. ToA is the same effect as a harbor: a multiplier on top of the base value

[Krill]

Question: doesn't ToA affect Merchant cash bomb values? I thought that was based off base trade route values?

[The Black Sword]

Merchant bombs are based off the final trade route value in the city, after multipliers. So ToA, harbour etc. all increase the Trade Mission value.

[Charriu]

Question: doesn't ToA affect Merchant cash bomb values? I thought that was based off base trade route values?

The short answer is: Yes, ToA affects the great merchants trade mission. For the detailed answer see here:

curious civplayer segment

[Charriu]

I see that there is quite a discussion about IND in the last post, so I want to respond to those. First of all at this point in time I don't see an imminant reason to change IND in any way, but doesn't mean in can't change in the future. I do have one particular issue with IND, which also makes it hard for me to collect enough data about it as well as how to collect data about it anyway. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

I've been thinking about the Industrious trait and how to make it more viable.  Right now it's main bonus is cheap forges with cheaper WW and NWs as a secondary weak bonus.

Rather than trying to balance the wonder bonus, remove it and give Industrious the 25% boost to Worker production that Expansive lost.

If cheap forges and faster worker production isn't quite enough, keep the bonus to National Wonders and lose the bonus to World Wonders.

So Ind becomes: 

+25% Worker production
+100% Forge production
+50% National Wonder Production

First of I have to say that I think that the worker bonus fits IND from a theme-point of view. After all it is called "industrious". But I think this is too strong together with the wonder bonus. At the same time I also think that removing the wonder bonus in total is a bad decision for CtH and the mods goals. The wonder bonus is THE identifying bonus for IND and the first thing that comes to mind for most players when they think about IND. The wonder bonus is also very interesting and opens up a lot of play-styles. Still I like the worker bonus idea, it just doesn't fit CtH.

Maybe add a hammer to the city center at some size?  have citizen specialists give 2 hammers?  Have workers be more efficient (like steam power or Hagia sophia, but stacking)?

All interesting. The hammer to the city center tile would enable the player to settle all hill tiles and receive the same hammer output as a plains hill tile, so defacto a defensive bonus. Citizen specialist giving 2 hammers looks to be a bit more niche, because you rarely want to work citizens even if they are 2 hammers. You could just as well work a plains forest or grasland hill forest tile for example. Workers being more efficient is interesting and plays into the same thing that Thoth already mentioned. All of these ideas would need extra code, which is why I wouldn't want to do them right now. The are also a little bit more of a departure from the usual trait.

That's a big part of the problem with the trait right there:  it's value decreases depending on how many Ind players there are.  I do not think this is good design.

I'm a nonparticipating observer in the mod, but I would call that a strength rather than a problem.  It's fine to have a trait whose value changes with such circumstances.  That adds a layer of interesting interactions for the various civ-picking procedures.

This is a tricky one, because it depends on ones own (subjective) design philosophy. I personally would like it if more players could and would play IND in the same game. One reason is the provided data I mentioned above. The other is that IND is the only trait that falls into this diminishing value trap. The changes I did with Metal Casting, were done in order to decrease this effect. This effect of course comes from the wonder bonus. Removing that is out of the question for the above reasons. The only other way to diminish the effect is to buff more wonders, so that there are enough viable wonders for 2, 3 or more IND players. The problem with that is that buffing a lot wonders could change the overall pace of the game as well as feeling further away from home and increasing the changelog by a lot. But like I said a lot about this comes down to ones own design philosophy.

If we buff Industrious (I'm not sure that it needs it), I would prefer something less 'gamey' than fail-gold.

Actualy failing gold takes alot of planning, and losing for that time the hammers which will be used in other direction. I s not a simply decision and gives more choiches as a game, but Krill and other just wanted a simply game spam cottages and there you go.. so was removed. I remember i argued against it then, and I do now.

So first of all to get everybody up to speed we are talking about this change from the changelog:


- Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).

I'm not denying that the whole Fail-gold implemention in BtS is a lot of planning, decision-making and you know what. I can't speak for Krill, but the reason why I did implement the same change as RtR is because to me personally this whole concept of building wonders in multiple cities in order to earn yourself fail-gold feels a lot like an exploit and I don't think that this is what the original developers intended for fail-gold. I think the main reason fail-gold was implemented was to make loosing in a wonder race less painful. I didn't remove it to make the game simpler or more of a cottage spam. Now we can argue about if this is an exploit and I would bow down to what the community wants in this matter.

If we're going to buff IND, I'd rather we double down on the national wonder bonus and increase that to 100%. This feels more in line with the rest of CtH.

This is the first thing I would try to improve IND. It's also fair to mention that mackoti also already brought this up in the past.

[civac2]

The developer intention really is not terribly relevant. However, in regards to failgold it is curious that National Wonders also provide failgold in BTS.