Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Krill]

Moving on...Mali

Mali: The Wheel, Mining. UB: Forge replacement: Mint. +10% gold, +10% beakers. UU: Archer replacement. Skirmisher. Strength 4, -40% against archers.

Two proposed changes, and I'm not sure these are perfect. The skirm is just that little bit too powerful. It has 70% odds against swords on defense (in a city or out a city is the same either both get 50% bonus or nothing) with full fortification, with equal promotions (but it only just reaches 56% odds on defense at 20% fortification). But that is flatland, with no culture. Culture doesn't actually do much except change the amount of fortification needed to reach those odds (so with 20% culture, the skirm has even odds once in the city with no fortification, and it reaches 70% at 5% fort, 75% with full fort. Hill or walled cities swords bounce off. Against HA the skirms are just as good, and cost half as much. Against C2 HA they need either CG1 or 20% culture to get 67% odds on defense in a city, no hills.

But this is fine, the skirm is basically the majority of the power for Mali. But is also very difficult to stop a choke cutting off resources in a city. Not impossible, but requires very good play. The -40% against Archers is specific to archers and not archery units like the longbow or Xbow, and it has the same aim as its implementation in the impi: it is there to make it more realistic that a skirmisher choke can be broken with archers alone. This is the nerf to the skirmisher, and the effect is just to make the skirm stick to what it should be: city defender and tile defender.

Then taking this nerf, and putting it into the Mint in the form of +10% beakers: the gold bonus has always been self defeating (all gold bonuses are), but this just irons it out. Build the mint, no mater what you put the slider at for gold and beakers, you get 10% more (rounding aside). These are 2 relatively small changes to bring Mali into line. i don't think the UB needs a redesign, just a small buff, and this is better than just l;umping happy bonuses onto everything. The skirm will always be a great unit because of how opponents have to react, so this will be another civ that can be picked by late era leaders: Imagine Ramses (IND/SPI) picking this up.

[Charriu]

Looks good, only thing is that the tooltip for the skirm should clarify that this is against the unit and not the unit type.

[pindicator]

Can we get this mints in 41?

I like it

[pindicator]

What about just making it +10% commerce? It's a little stronger in commerce cities, a little weaker with specialists, and just something unique to the game

[Krill]

Because it's multiplicative with other modifiers for one, so much stronger than it first appears. It's stronger in all cities, not just commerce cities.

[Krill]

Moving on...Sumeria

Sumeria: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Courthouse replacement: Ziggarut. Available at Writing. Cost 90. UU: axe replacement. Vulture. Strength 6. 25% bonus against melee. 5% bonus against axemen.

Not sure if this is actually strong enough, or that interesting. I do feel that so long as the Zigarrut is on Priesthood Sumeria will not get out the pigeon hole of an Oracle rush though, and Writing is the gateway tech out of the ancient era so seems a better place to put it if the theme is "How long can I ignore caste for?"

[Krill]

Actually, let's expand on Sumeria and then move onto Egypt and Arabia. I've been thinking about those two for a while.

The Ziggarut is just a slightly cheaper courthouse that comes earlier in the tech tree (thus lessening the tech burden that locks down horizontal expansion, and making the building easier to complete in small cities). At 90 hammers it can get built exactly the same as a library: double pop whip and 40 hammers from chops and natural production in most cities, so looking at 72 food to reach size 4 if you grow on the Ziggarut, or if you can fit in a granary at size 1 a minimum of 49 food to grow. That's not entirely relevant, the point being it is achievable in a realistic timeframe.

The point is why would you do that? Courthouses become more viable as you build more cities, so there is very little point in building them too early. Libraries are probably better because they will generate more beakers than -50% city maintenance will before turn 80 and you can even use them to pop borders, and they have two specialists slots so you can get a GS for an Academy or an early-ish GA if that's the plan. Putting them on a tech you might push for by T50 doesn't seem like it helps, it doesn't give any power to the UB. And when you start wanting to build them, You still have to fit CoL into a tech path because Caste is necessary for the golden age to pump out further great people and the workshop hammer when you swap over from whipping to working tiles as the happy cap lifts. Having Ziggaruts unlocked for when you need them is the majority of the flexibility of the UB, but putting it on Priesthood removes flexibility by forcing Sumeria to either go for Oracle to make the path worthwhile (which pretty much creates an Oracle>Monarchy or Oracle>MC plan). Putting them on Writing seems to fit the UB better, but I'm still not sure it makes Sumeria "Interesting".

The UU is barely unchanged. Giving it +5% against axes just puts it back at 50% odds on offense and defense on flat land, but beyond that it's not possible to keep it balanced the same as a base axe. I know people have a hissy fit with the vulture when it appears worse in a standard situation. A strength 6 axe isn't interesting either. It is only different in how you deal with horse archers, in that you might have a few more strength 6 units to attack a stack with. I don't think the combination puts it up there with Inca, or even Mali, because the flexibility is not the same as power

[Krill]

Egypt and Arabia were built around the same theme: how to shrine a religion. They are the only two civs that can routinely plan to shrine a religion, every other civ has to either build a temple and wait 34 turns (and pay the 2 food for 1 hammer tax), or build Henge/Oracle and wait 50 turns. The temple option is always awkward, because of 80 hammer cost and then the food loss with the specialist makes it much more difficult to whip the city (realistically need a 2 food city to manage it, and it also requires a granary). Both options pushes back the timetable so much that the decision comes down to Shrine versus Academy. It's almost impossible to get both because then you have to find 300gpp to get the first golden age. PHI leaders can't do it effectively. I think Egypt and Arabia are the only two civs that can actually manage to get both as well without PHI but this requires 2 cities.

Compare and contrast: Arabia has Agri/Myst so can go religion first, and then try to right the economy until Writing comes in. Egypt has to fit religion around a standard opening because of starting Agri/Wheel, but that is doable, plenty of games have religion dropped into second city on the turn of founding, or there is a push to Monotheism.

Egypt can spend 30 hammers to get two specialist slots. But add in the library, and it's possible to run 4 specialists for 120 hammers. Arabia can run 4 specialists for 70 hammers. That is the first GP as mixed odds in 9 turns (for Arabia, 9 turns after completing the Madrassa, for Egypt, it takes longer because it is a guaranteed GP but you can start sooner). The second GP in 34 turns in the same city for Arabia, or can be started in a second city for Egypt to overlap and complete sooner for the Academy. The third GP can be generated from a second city within 10 turns after the second GP is completed for Arabia, or from the first city for Egypt after the GS is completed. The context is then, if the first great person is completed by T70, which is actually achievable, the second one can come out any time between T90 and T105, and the third comes by T115 which is fine for the first GA.

All these figures change if you have PHI: Arabia gets the first GP at mixed odds after 4 turns (4 specialists might causes a food deficit, but for 4 turns it's easily sustainable), then gets the guaranteed alternate type 12 turns later whilst saving food again, then blitzes out the third GP in 10 turns. 26 turns from start to finish.

Trivial. Potentially even interesting. But is it any stronger than just grabbing an ordinary library and shoving out a GS in a less taxing time frame, between T75 and T95, whilst you have a second city get up to speed and push out another GS on the overlap? I don't think it is, because you pay for being able to do this by having to actually get the early religion.

That's why I don't think Egypt has any power on the UB. It's all flavour. Arabia has some power on the UB because it is a cheap library and extra culture (it's relevant if you are pushing for 40% culture borders which have value in themselves). It know that someone (Cairo?) raised the possibility of having a priest slot on the Ziggarut. That adds flavour to the UB, it supports keeping the Ziggarut at Priesthood, but it doesn't add any power except through a RNG granted perfect sentry in the Gspy being more easily accessible. Sumeria has to then push out a GP quicker with Oracle if successful, but then we are just shoving Sumeria even harder into it's pigeonhole.

[Old Harry]

You can always found two religions and build two temples for a quick shrine. Nice if SPI.

Agree on Sumeria's Priesthood courthouse being worse than on CoL, Writing (or even Pottery or BW) seems a better fit for a building that you shouldn't build so early.

[Krill]

The crux of the matter is this: Egypt has all the power on the UU, but the power level is limited by making it counterable. That's why the WC was nerfed to not run over archers, and it's power needs to be lengthened to work further through the game. I think the original suggestion works:

Egypt: The Wheel/Agriculture. UB: Monument replacement: Obelisk. +2 Priest slots. UU: Chariot replacement. War Chariot. Strength 5. -25% against archers. Flank attack against Catapults (3 units, max 100%).

The question of when to swap over from WC to HA remains, but it's a lot more interesting now. WC can't compete with HA due to the strength disparity if you just continue to build WC, because you wander a 10 unit stack of C1 WC into someones land and run into a 10 unit stack of C2 or C1 HA and the WC have odds of 22% and 27% odds on defense plus HA have innate retreat odds. That's not changed. But Egypt becomes much more able to defend against SoD and catapults if those 20 WC can get off flank attacks onto catapults whilst it's dealing with the aftermath of a shrine+academy play. HA are solid units that form the backbone of a military, but with the changes to swords the choices are much more important. The WC further erodes the role of the HA as the backbone unit of clasical era militaries which provides both power and interestingness IMO.