[SPOILERS]PB46: (In Search of) Fine Foreign Dining, by Hannibal of England

[GermanJoey]

yeah, but the problem is if you don't bulb Astro, and your opponent does, you are 4K beakers down in the race to frigates. So you are somewhat forced top do at least a single bulb to help out in the beaker race. Astro is over 4.4K beakers in this game btw.

The Astro bulb is by no means an immediate necessity, but I played Portugal in PB42 and it was rough, I didn't even make it to Economics. But that was due to other reasons, I could still have done an astro bulb.

You're still overly paranoid about the Astro bulb!


Like, sure, an opponent suddenly bulbing Astro is a huge concern, but it's not something that happens instantly. Just because someone bulbs Astro doesn't mean that your coast is covered in 30 Galleons loaded with Amphibious Knights the next turn. E.g. look at my situation in PB29, where I had that huge tech lead, libbed Astro, and then bullied Haram's coast for a bit. He just turtled up, spammed some Caravels to slow me down, and was able to recover. Or hell, even in PB37 I got Astro like 3rd or 4th in the game and it was still fine because I wasn't in direct conflict with dtay, who libbed Astro first. A bulb and a hefty KTB was enough to recover. Even if I had been in conflict with dtay, the most he could have done is choke part of my coast for awhile because a.) I would have directly gone for Astro instead of sidelining Engineering first (which is a great defensive tech against Astro, btw, as it reduces Galleons' ability to fork your coastal cities) and b.) my coastline was very expansive, and so even if he choked part of it really wouldn't have dampened my ship-production ability too drastically.

Furthermore, Portugal can bulb Optics very early and then ravage their rival's coast before they're even close to Astro. Without cities that can produce ships, Astro doesn't do jack! 

But anyways, I'm not especially interested in Portugal, I just am not convinced that the fact that "Great Scientist have the ability to bulb Astronomy" necessarily takes away anything from this civ.

[GermanJoey]

Picked England. If we can sneak Hannibal, that'd be great IMO. Back ups are Boudicca (because I'm angry and want to hurt people), Ragnar (because I'm angry and want to sulk in my corner of the world), Mansa (because SPI seems to have relevance at last). If all those are gone I'm going to go and warrior rush someone.

The Wangster would also be pretty good considering that we're interested in an early granary. Pro is pretty nice for islands anyways. Also, Darius is better than normal for the same reason.

[GermanJoey]

Alright, England sounds good. Cya in three weeks when it's our turn to pick again!

[GermanJoey]

I'll play with the sim tonight. I'll try variations of:

size 3 -> granary, with and without Pro
size 2 -> settler -> granary, with and without Pro

[Krill]

We've done 6 picks out of 32 in 12 hours, but still no one has picked a leader!

Rome has gone though.

[Krill]

I'll play with the sim tonight. I'll try variations of:

size 3 -> granary, with and without Pro
size 2 -> settler -> granary, with and without Pro

I'm writing the sim run up now for a none fin, none pro, England opening with 2 workers>settler>granary. It's reasonably tight, but I've not looked at single settler runs.

[Krill]

yeah, but the problem is if you don't bulb Astro, and your opponent does, you are 4K beakers down in the race to frigates. So you are somewhat forced top do at least a single bulb to help out in the beaker race. Astro is over 4.4K beakers in this game btw.

The Astro bulb is by no means an immediate necessity, but I played Portugal in PB42 and it was rough, I didn't even make it to Economics. But that was due to other reasons, I could still have done an astro bulb.

You're still overly paranoid about the Astro bulb!


Like, sure, an opponent suddenly bulbing Astro is a huge concern, but it's not something that happens instantly. Just because someone bulbs Astro doesn't mean that your coast is covered in 30 Galleons loaded with Amphibious Knights the next turn. E.g. look at my situation in PB29, where I had that huge tech lead, libbed Astro, and then bullied Haram's coast for a bit. He just turtled up, spammed some Caravels to slow me down, and was able to recover. Or hell, even in PB37 I got Astro like 3rd or 4th in the game and it was still fine because I wasn't in direct conflict with dtay, who libbed Astro first. A bulb and a hefty KTB was enough to recover. Even if I had been in conflict with dtay, the most he could have done is choke part of my coast for awhile because a.) I would have directly gone for Astro instead of sidelining Engineering first (which is a great defensive tech against Astro, btw, as it reduces Galleons' ability to fork your coastal cities) and b.) my coastline was very expansive, and so even if he choked part of it really wouldn't have dampened my ship-production ability too drastically.

Furthermore, Portugal can bulb Optics very early and then ravage their rival's coast before they're even close to Astro. Without cities that can produce ships, Astro doesn't do jack! 

But anyways, I'm not especially interested in Portugal, I just am not convinced that the fact that "Great Scientist have the ability to bulb Astronomy" necessarily takes away anything from this civ.

I think my position is more nuanced than that, but I've not really gone into detail regarding why I think Portugal can't just "ignore" Astro. I don't think Portugal is a bad civ, but I originally thought Portugal = Astro can go fuck itself. It's not that simple, even Portugal has to be able to react in the tech race. PB42 also had some extremely difficult strategic/economic problems for me, that I mishandled later on, but were also a consequence of the map (like having no good coastal production cities over half my coast line on a B&S map).

I suppose the point I'm making for Portugal to react is, if you are going to bulb something, bulbing a GS into Astro is the most efficient bulb you can. Not that you have to rush that damn thing.

[Krill]

Actually, how to I use the spreadsheet to show a whip?

[Krill]

Basic plan, I will type it up tomorrow in a spreadsheet but I'm not sure how to fit all the juggling in. Just seen that FIN matters a little bit (different worker movements as Agri is a delayed a turn) but:

Tech path BW eot14 > Agri eot18 (FIN) eot19 (none FIN) > Wheel (who cares) > Pottery eot 30/31.

Standard work boat first opening: work grass forest T0-T4, T5-T8 work grass hill forest. T9 dump overflow into a worker, T10 improve fish, build warrior. Grow@2 eoT11. Build worker T12. Revolt Slavery T14. Whip worker T16. Dump overflow into worker2 T17, Move Worker West T17. Build warrior T18, chop/cancel T18 (T19 as well for None FIN leaders). T19 move worker SW, farm. Growth@2 eot21. T22 swap to worker, T23 farm complete, swap back to warrior, complete eot. T24 worker moves NE onto forest, build worker. T25 worker1 chop, swap back to warrior. T26 chop complete, swap to worker2, complete eot. T27 build warrior, worker1 moves NE, worker2 moves SE. T28 both workers chop. eoT28 growth@3, T29 build settler. T30 both workers complete chops, T31 worker 1 moves N, worker2 moves S, T32 chops start, T33 whip settler, T34 both comps finish, complete granary (7 hammers over, warrior ~9/15 and only one warrior built).

[GermanJoey]

Actually, how to I use the spreadsheet to show a whip?

Ah, you couldn't, so I just added that. Just set the value in the whipped column to be non-zero. It won't do the granary half-bin though... should I add that too?