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Variant Pitboss Signup

Edited: See signup post below or here: https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...#pid830432

Original post below.

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I’ve been thinking a little bit lately about how I’m sort of not crazy about the range of PB games that get launched lately. They almost exclusively fall into one of two buckets:

1. Semi-mirrored ancient starts with a balance mod
2. Pure random ancient starts with a balance mod


It’s sort of a shame that more elaborate setups have gone by the wayside  - either later era or variants. So I’m going to toss one out there and sort of gauge interest. This isn’t necessarily a signup thread (yet) as I don’t really have the bandwidth yet to play one of these solo, although I would happily team with someone. But I’m curious if there’s interest in a Variant Pitboss - either now or in a few months when another game or two ends. It can still be somewhat competitive, but with some sort of special ruleset borrowed from a previous RB Adventure/Epic/SG. The goal here would be a serious attempt to play out and showcase the variant first and winning second, but by all means try to win.

As it happens, I have a wild one in mind.

https://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/c4tourney/adv19.html

Mao’s Muse

This was an extremely cool Adventure from ages ago with a very seemingly simple premise.

Quote:Scenario Rules: You may select one extra starting tech. You may choose any technology; however, you will not receive any "first to" bonus as the tech is NOT discovered. (For example, Liberalism will not grant an additional free technology.)


My thoughts on how to make this work - a 5 player game on a relatively balanced but unmirrored map. I think 5 is the right number (but you could persuade me of 6) due to the tech strength falling off hard around that number. I sort of suspect Classical start might be best, but that’s more debatable. No tech could be picked more than once just to showcase some variety.


There would be a 4-round snake pick in which you could pick leader, civ, tech, or starting screenshot. The capitals would not be mirrored or even super evenly balanced - we ideally would want one or two OP and one or two that are a little meh but playable. I would also strongly recommend Vanilla BtS for a few reasons. One, a lot of the balancing we’ve done in the two community mods assumes a fairly normal game, which this would not be. Second, having some uber leaders/civs helps offset things for those who don’t get first pick of the starting tech. For example, if you go 5th in the snake pick and everyone before you picked a tech, you can still fall back on Pacal of Inca or something as a super nice consolation prize to pair with your less-broken starting tech, as opposed to our mods which have hammered down some of the most OP stuff. I think with CtH or RtR you’d see everyone picking tech/start first, but with Vanilla it might be more debatable. Basically the goal of this setup is to pile on the broken things and make people try to figure out what is most broken and then demonstrate it. (BUG could be used if there’s desire for it.)

Now, before you tell me how unbalanced it would be and/or how you think X tech would be broken, I know. I would like to see people try to exploit something they think is broken, and I would sort of like to try it myself too. I’m curious if Pacal of the 5th best tech can beat the 5th best leader + <the tech you’re screaming about in your head while reading this>. There’s a couple techs in particular I suspect would blow the field away, but I also wonder if a well-chosen military tech could just walk in and destroy them both. I also bet the MP nature will change some of the priorities compared to the original running of the game.

Is there a general interest in playing or watching something like this at some point? I'm open to alternative ideas too. This is just one that has stuck in my head.
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I've been toying around with some variant ideas in my head, but I really like thos one. Not comitting to playing it just yet, but would definitely lurk it.
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
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Definitely interested in watching, could be persuaded to dedlurk.

Not saying this isn't a great one, but T-hawk wacky hammers become food, food becomes commerce, commerce becomes hammers came to mind.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.

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Somehow I am still playing in 3 games, but yes I'd be interested if it starts not too soon. Even just late era start would shake things up, but your variant is seven mute interesting. I don't like BtS though, just because of how unfamiliar I am with it at this point.
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I very much want to watch the variant games, I could even be persuaded about the yield shake up game.

That said the extra start tech should really be discussed publicly because its easily possible the game gets broken before it starts. Rocketry, Artillery...it would make sense to start in the medieval era.
Current games (All): RtR: PB83

Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71 PB80. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6:  PBEM22 PBEM23Games ded lurked: PB18
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(April 20th, 2023, 03:01)Miguelito Wrote: Somehow I am still playing in 3 games,  but yes I'd be interested if it starts not too soon. Even just late era start would shake things up,  but your variant is seven mute interesting. I don't like BtS though,  just because of how unfamiliar I am with it at this point.

Yeah, I thought about potentially pre-planning the signups for it (or something similar) to be something like after PB66 or PB69 ends, or alternatively just plan it for a date in mid/late summer.


(April 20th, 2023, 03:53)Krill Wrote: I very much want to watch the variant games, I could even be persuaded about the yield shake up game.

That said the extra start tech should really be discussed publicly because its easily possible the game gets broken before it starts. Rocketry, Artillery...it would make sense to start in the medieval era.

Yeah, there's a few wrinkles that I guess are worth discussing openly.

* I would be concerned that someone potentially having Emancipation from T0 would be really unfun given that it may crush everyone with unhappiness. Some sort of mod removing that aspect of the civic alone may be necessary to make this viable.

* Those techs along with some of the other military techs (Rifling comes to mind) I think I'm OK with being in this. Artillery for example are still a 150h unit which is tough to mass in any real numbers in the early game. Mid-game is different, but what if someone is miles ahead of you by then and can just mass units? 6 axes attacking 1 Artillery get odds. More hammers (210h vs 150h), but if the player with axes is ahead on growth curve due to their tech (plus they are defender and have more time to mass), that's fine. I can maybe see the argument for banning UU/tech combos, but I'm not totally sure it would actually be stronger than a couple of the econ techs, so my inclination is to let it all be and see if someone proves it.


That said, the argument for vanilla and choosing amongst unequal starts is to give the players other levers with which to balance things. Also, if this game were to be over in 2-3 months because someone did outright break the game and hilariously lap the field, I don't think that would necessarily be a disaster. I would hope signups understand that is a possibility. I am more concerned with things that are inherently unfun than OP.


I'm open to other ideas though. I don't think I would play a tile yield mixup game, but I would certainly watch. We've played a lot of funky SP games here in the past, so there's quite a few ideas out there.
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I am more worried about Rocketry and guided missiles, off the top of my head it seems like a very cost-efficient way to break pre-industrial defenses.
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The tech variant sounds like a lot of fun. I would play in a team or dedlurk someone. I think base bts and classical start is a reasonable compromise. I think there might be a need for a few bans on the tech tree.
My singleplayer balance mod of BTS: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/3u6g4b2nfa74qhm...%20mod.odt?
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(April 20th, 2023, 08:50)Gavagai Wrote: I am more worried about Rocketry and guided missiles, off the top of my head it seems like a very cost-efficient way to break pre-industrial defenses.

Guided missiles require Radio as well as Rocketry.
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Reply

(April 20th, 2023, 08:50)Gavagai Wrote: I am more worried about Rocketry and guided missiles, off the top of my head it seems like a very cost-efficient way to break pre-industrial defenses.

Artillery enables AT as a strength 14 unit and arty, with no other tech needs, and Rocketry enables SAM inf as a strength 18 unit. Add in free strikes as promotions get rolling and they just will not die.
Current games (All): RtR: PB83

Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71 PB80. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6:  PBEM22 PBEM23Games ded lurked: PB18
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