Two Heads Think Better than Three

[Sareln]

Can you pick Sid w/out a mod or something to unlock it though?

Is there a pick order in place yet?

[Sareln]

More helpfully:

Agriculture/Wheel Civs:

• Babylon
  
• Egypt
  
• Ottomans
  
• Sumeria
  
• France
  

Mining/Myst Civs:

• India
  
• Korea
  
• Maya
  

[Krill]

(Arabia, Byz)/China is just about the only other way to get Mining/Myst/Wheel/Agri. So there are only 3 teams max that could get that combo. One other team will have to go for Fishing or Hunting instead of Myst (or give up one of Wheel, Mining or Agri which doesn't seem smart to me). As yet there is no pick order.

[Ichabod]

I had an interesting chat with Krill regarding picks for the game. I'll post it now.

Preface: Krill: Just preface it with that fact I have no idea how difficult it is to expand on these settings
and that I don't think it's the only way to play the game out

Ichabod: How about Carthage + Mongolia
Two charismatic leaders
HBR rush

Krill: PB10 is basically a PBEM
but you have to kill 4 people to win
early warfare is a suckers choice
Focus on building a strong core then medieval war if necessary
though HA stacks are possible, small stack warfare isn't that likely IMO
(likely to be profitable)
Hunting/Wheel/Fishing/Mining is a few beakers lighter than necessary though

Ichabod: Yeah...
Do you think that'd change if teh game was normal speed?

Krill: Not really
NC suck attacking unsupported, they are no better than WC against archers but cost 50 rather than 30 hammers
There aren't many better choices than playing safe in this sort of game, provided you can go horizontal-ish early on
which is as much about commerce generation as about building hte settlers

Ichabod: Currency will probably be a big bottleneck in regards to potential expansion, then

Krill: Yeah
Currency is the main tech aim
it's the reason by Sumeria works but HRE and Aztecs don't work that well
Because Currency is the first Classical era tech aim
Monarchy is not important
but I suppose someone needs to keep the possibility of Oracle>Currency open
As HR sucks as a civic, the real question is who goes for IND to try and get Mids

Ichabod: Oracle -> Currency seems impractical with the need to get math
Seeing as beakers will be the bottleneck for exapansion early (and we need to keep expanding)

Krill: Pottery, AH, BW, Meditation, Preisthood, Writing,. Maths
Those are the only techs needed
maybe Fishing

Ichabod: yeah, but I'd bet there'll be teams gunning for something like CoL

Krill: And some smart alec could actually get Writing as the third tech, with a CRE leader (maybe Pericles)
to bulb Maths

Ichabod: I thought of that
Pericles + Bismarck?

Krill: You're actually more limited by hammers actually building Oracle. Sure, someone could get MC or CoL, but there is always that outside chance someone leaves it a few too many turns
yrah, it's possible
But I'd say without FIN they would fall off late game
and would have real problems going horizontal
even with Currency

Ichabod: Bulbing currency seems impractical, due to the difficulty of getting an early merchant

Krill: Yeah, it's hand research

Ichabod: Maybe with TGLh and philo
The other ways would require Oracle anyway, with CoL + Spi, for example

Krill: That's why I think PHI sucks
gets an Academy 6 turns earlier
but just spend those 6 turns saving gold and the eta to Currency doesn't change

Ichabod: Good point...

Krill: I'd only pick PHI as Gandhi
artist bombs and bulbs on demand
and bulbs use team wide population

Ichabod: What do you think of Ramesses as a leader to get Oracle or Pyramids? Does the turn saved on slavery have a big impact or is it neglegible in face of EXP? Maybe the possibility of getting the Org Rel bonus...
It seems to me that the teams that don't get Oracle or Pyramids will have difficulty to be on the competition

Krill: I wouldn't give a damn about hte Oracle
Tech goes fast anyway
Mids, well, I think the smartest counter to that is something like the Joao/Mansa Combo
where you throw everything at getting hte FIN leader runnign every single cottage possible

Ichabod: Mansa could be Hannibal, don't you think?

Krill: Yup
That's the other choice
Hanniball is more baout the mid game though
using CHM at knights

Ichabod: And João could be SPI/EXP or EXP/IND

Krill: getting more cottages worked a bit earlier
The issue with Bismark is that he basically has to go balls deep on wonders to justify IND it works
but it's a different strategy to focussing on giving settlers and workers to the FIn leader
Though SPI/EXXP is just junk
EXP leader should have about half the land of the FIN leader
every scrap of land between the two civs goes to the FIN leader
EXP settles forward (excepting second city etc)
EXP doesn't actually pair that well IMO
ORG doesn't work, too few cities
SPI...doesn't do anything special, but fine if no other choice
PHI is perhapps better to have a bit of flexibility on the GP choices
And I always like getting a shrine

Ichabod: It seems that gifting cities to the financial civ is really the way to go, since it's the only trait that directly boosts tile yields
The financial civ could be one with a happy UB
Maya would be a very good pick, I think, since a lot of civs have Agri + Wheel

Krill: Yeah
Only issue is no doubler
but frankly
who cares
at that point
I'm trying to canvince myself that Joao is a bad pick but failing TBH
start dependent, but...
worker>granary could be insane

Ichabod: And pretty viable with 4 techs

Krill: could end up with worker and granary and improved food by T12 or so
then boom

Ichabod: Meanwhile, the financial civ can have a good number of cottages already
of course, not on turn 12, but I mean, early in the game
Since expanding won't be such a big deal

Krill: Yeah
Focus on getting the cottages worked.
not on building settlers or workers
just be a bit careful
The reason I said 5 cities of Joao is that he only really needs 2 good cities to expand from. 3 cities on 6 turn slavery cycles give a settler and 2 workers evvery 6 turns whilst putting hammers into military
without any chops
and with only 4 food surplus for 2 turns and 5 food surplus for 2 turns
so it's not even that food dependent
dry rice or a flood plain works

Ichabod: Do you think there's a chance of other teams picking João?

Krill: Maybe
Doubt they realise how to really abuse it though

Ichabod: having a second civ is like countering João main weakness: he gets a lot of cities, but doesn't use them very well. This way, you get a lot of cities and give them to someone that can use them very well.

Krill: Exactly

Ichabod: But why mansa and not Hannibal? Could you elaborate?

Krill: That's why I wanted to ensure that he could get out the cheap grnary as well
EIther Hannibal or Mansa work
it's just means there is a slightly different focus on the mid game and Hannibal is a bit safer if there is a lack of happy res
Mansa is arguably teh safer late game leader though because of hte flexibility of SPI, if you needed NH rather than, say, Bureaucracy, and to go in and out of Theocracy
It's not that different
because end game you sit in US, SP, and probably Emancipation or caste
maybe slavery if you are conquering people and want to remove their pop from the map

Ichabod: But João can't get the cheap granary for his teammate, can he?

Krill: no

Ichabod: Ok
That'd be very broken

Krill: Yeah.
Pity
Sounded fun
Though truth be told it just means you need the extra worker there
not impossible to do

[Ichabod]

Ah, and we also considered that Maya for the techer and Egypt for Joao would be a good bet.

[zakalwe]

If the plan is to bloat the Fin player, shouldn't he ideally be Fin/Org?

Also... glad I was able to talk you around on Exp and Imp.

[NobleHelium]

Summary of the chat: Krill pushes Joao as the best pick ever, amirite?

[Krill]

FIN/ORG, FIN/SPI, FIN/CHM would all work wirh various alterations to game strategy. I don't think IMP is useful with any other trait though. And a comment on ORG, if the aim is to get a fin leader bloated the support civ doesn't need it because they will end up with fewer cities: I dont think ORG is useful outside FIN/ORG using that strategy.

And when I said IMP was junk I thought it would be a toroidal map

[Krill]

Summary of the chat: Krill pushes Joao as the best pick ever, amirite?

Bismark and Peter make sense to me. Don't like other EXP combos.

Edit:auto complrte is racist

[Ichabod]

Second and 7th pick for us, it seems. Plako even said we might see starting screenshots today.