[no players] We like to lurk lurkers lurking.

[WilliamLP]

Is IND even better when there is no stone or marble? It doesn't seem obvious to me. (Well it seems "obvious" in the sense that intuition can be wrong.)

+ You can be sure to have an advantage vs a non-IND leader on any wonder. Variance and predictability is maybe the biggest problem with wonder strats.
+ You can plan to be competitive for any given wonder without needing the resource.
- Wonders, in general, are weakened. Particularly ones which are questionable builds without the doubler. So a strat around wonders doesn't seem obviously more powerful.
- IND also helps you if you have the doubler, so you have no chance of getting the deals you'd have with IND, and stone or marble as well.
- Circular, but the fact that people think IND is more attractive (whether or not it's better) makes it worse.

[Bacchus]

I don't actually see IND as valuable for opening up new strategies, rather that you will save hammers on any builds that you would have liked to complete anyway. You are going to want to build MoM one way or another, if you have the chance, and it's just nice to save all these hammers. And forges too, not to speak of mints.

OTOH, using IND to pursue a build that you saw as closed previously, but made available through the bonus is indeed risky and hardly a reason to pick the trait.

[SevenSpirits]

He picked Ramses of Mali when there were already 3 IND leaders.

To be fair, Louis hadn't been picked yet at that point. Only HC and Bismarck.

[Krill]

Ah, makes a bit more sense, but I still would have picked Hannibal. I think CHM is a bit underrated.

[WilliamLP]

I'll be playing to win [...] Micro will be minimal

Um, good luck with that!

[spacetyrantxenu]

I'll be playing to win [...] Micro will be minimal

Um, good luck with that!

Don't worry, Catwalk won't win or lose by micro anyway. It's liable to be either a crazy insightfully good or a skull numbingly bad plan that decides his fate here.

Edit: no comment on which is more likely to happen, though.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I'll be playing to win [...] Micro will be minimal

Um, good luck with that!

I had the same thought...

As for IND, it is less beneficial with resource doublers available in terms of the benefit the trait nets on a build. -50% from IND is worth more on a 500h build than it is on a 500h-100% (doubler) - 50%. My math sucks, so please, someone can explain this better. I'm not going through and putting real values down.

One bonus for IND with resource doublers is that you can fund your economy with failgold at a super juicy +150% if you have organized religion and forges, which IMO anyone doing much with the IND trait should strive to do (particularly decently early forges if the game situation allows for this). There are plenty of times during a game that you'll have some hammers to spare and don't want/need to build a military. Not during an expansion rush, but at certain points. If you can plan for when and how to cash in the failgold in multiple cities (but not pushing it so far into the future that you harm your economic development), you can really get some benefit from IND in a non-conventional way.

This is not RBmod, right? Base BTS?

[Krill]

This is base BtS.

You can tell from the fact that everyone and his dog picked FIN.

On that note Commodore, you kinda suck a bit more at picking civs.

[Mardoc]

I'll be playing to win [...] Micro will be minimal

Um, good luck with that!

I figured what he meant was 'I won't be trolling'.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I'll be playing to win [...] Micro will be minimal

Um, good luck with that!

I figured what he meant was 'I won't be trolling'.

His presence is quasi-trolling. That said, this game will be more entertaining to lurk with catwalk in it, so onward, catwalk!