[SPOILER] PB37: Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the most aggressive of them all?

[Krill]

Probably better to make it require a bunch of medi era techs than a strict beeline, is make it require Optics and Engineering and something else like fued, if it is put on gunpowder and optics it costs as much in tech to unlock it as galleons, without the utility.

[CFCJesterFool]

Privateer at Gunpowder.

This.

[Bacchus]

Probably better to make it require a bunch of medi era techs than a strict beeline, is make it require Optics and Engineering and something else like fued, if it is put on gunpowder and optics it costs as much in tech to unlock it as galleons, without the utility.

I was suggesting straight Gunpowder, without Optics (maybe with Calendar though). Engineering and something could be good too, maybe Civil Service.

Alternatively, Gunpowder gives Caravels +2 strength (not sure base strength changes at tech are possible, then +50% strength, which would make them viable as counter-attackers way into Ren era).

Gunpowder at the moment is a such a damp squib tech, compared to real-world significance, and either boost would actually be thematic.

[Krill]

I think you are right that it should be Gunpowder, and tbh Gunpowder and Optics seems to be the right tech to branch between the pure sailing unit and the transport.

I think all that would actually be needed would be to make the galleon need an extra tech, probably engineering, and it would work fine. Astro remains a great tech to double bulb for beakers, but the extra tech cost of engineering, or something else like CS, means that Gunpowder and Guilds don't stop privateers being too late to be counters.

That basically leads to just two changes needed to balance it, and neither seems hamfisted at first glance.

[Cornflakes]

I don't know what changes were made to bulb order or tech prerequisites, but looking at the base BTS it looks like adding CS as a pre-requisite would bump Paper and then Printing Press & Education above Astronomy in the bulb order. Thus rendering it much more difficult to reach via bulbing. Engineering as the pre-requisite doesn't look like it messes up the ability to bulb.

[Krill]

How about this.

Privateer, available at Gunpowder. Strength 6, 5 move, has sentry. Cost 80
Galleon, available at Astro, strength 4, 4 move, carries 3 land units. Cost 80
Caravel, available at Optics, strength 3, 3 move, has +125% attack against privateers. Cost 50

This way rock/paper/scissors wins. Someone rushing privateers can't sit in your ocean blocking resources, as caravels get odds, caravels die to everything on defense, and mixed galleon/privateer stacks are can handle invasion of a tech deficit player.

Some of the numbers can be tidied up, and the UU probably need fixing.

[Krill]

I don't know what changes were made to bulb order or tech prerequisites, but looking at the base BTS it looks like adding CS as a pre-requisite would bump Paper and then Printing Press & Education above Astronomy in the bulb order. Thus rendering it much more difficult to reach via bulbing. Engineering as the pre-requisite doesn't look like it messes up the ability to bulb.

It's not about stopping the bulb path but having methods of countering galleons that aren'tt more galleons.

[OT4E]

Make Privateer available on Gunpowder (without Astro) but being unable to enter ocean before Astronomy.

[Krill]

That doesn't help though, because without Astro unless you are blockading your own coast line galleons just ignore the privateers.

[Mardoc]

Caravel,  3 move,

caravels die to everything on defense

This makes them most definitely the weakest of the three.

I'm trying to picture the tactical scenario where I end up saying 'thank goodness I built all those caravels'.  About the only thing I can think of is an invasion by privateers and galleys, along a predictable path where I can pre-concentrate my navy.  Anything unpredictable, and the privateers just go ahead of the galleys and slaughter my caravels who can't hide in cities and accomplish anything.  Sentry + 5 moves means they should never end turn within three moves of me but can still control the sea.  Without the galleys to pin them down, I can't catch privateers.

Privateers on their own, I can maybe protect a net or two, but against a competent opponent it's not worth the hammers.

I guess maybe that's all you want from an obsolete unit, to make it so that galleys are still ineffective-ish?  It's fair to expect later units to be better units.  Still, it's not much of a rock-paper-scissors.