[SPOILERS] FFH II PBEM I Lurker Discussion Thread- No Players Allowed!

[Square Leg]

If Selrahc had sided with Bob and given him a super weapon (Brigit) instead of PB (ice mana) he might be in the opposite situation now. He was really in a tough spot. If he remained neutral there's no guarantee that he wouldn't have been killed, his best bet was to pick a side and hope the war dragged on inconclusively for a while.

Absolutely. How on earth would PB have won that battle so easily without Hemmah and 2 snowfalls????

[sunrise089]

If Selrahc had sided with Bob and given him a super weapon (Brigit) instead of PB (ice mana) he might be in the opposite situation now. He was really in a tough spot. If he remained neutral there's no guarantee that he wouldn't have been killed, his best bet was to pick a side and hope the war dragged on inconclusively for a while.

Brigit means nothing in a human-v-human battle like that, but yes, snowfall was key.

Regarding the AC - really, any effects are pretty overplayed. Blight can come fairly early and hurts because it slows you down when you want to be speeding up for expensive late-game techs. The fact that a single ~strength25 unit might spawn at AC 40 or whatever means almost nothing when you have dozens of units at your disposal. I concede that a civ like the dwarves or elves might be hurt, but that's because the AC summons are total snowball events, hurting those with no chance of winning anyways and being immaterial to civs who are still in play.

Regarding Selrahc having to pick a side - You're absolutely right Rowain. Only thing I'll add is that while a mage-based army is nice in single player (I prefer it most of the time), it isn't very good on the defensive in MP if you have to defend versus raiders. Selrahc's biggest worry with PB was a quick and decisive razing of core cities, like happened to the Hippus, so parking iron champions in cities defends a lot better than strength 4 mages.

[Rowain]

I wonder what Selrahc will do now. All the time PB has told him about a huge dangerous Vampire-Army and how desperatly he needs the help of the winterking and now all the Vampires are dead and soon the former bloodred lands will turn pink.
Will he then realise how he got played? and that it is now far too late to stop PB?


PB has been a great empire-builder, a great diplomat, a great general and usually at least 2 steps ahead any of his opponents

[Krill]

I seriously doubt Selrahc can do anything to stop Pb now. Hell, Pb might finish the game as an AW game.

[SevenSpirits]

If Selrahc had sided with Bob and given him a super weapon (Brigit) instead of PB (ice mana) he might be in the opposite situation now. He was really in a tough spot. If he remained neutral there's no guarantee that he wouldn't have been killed, his best bet was to pick a side and hope the war dragged on inconclusively for a while.

I think you're ignoring the fact that he's had good relations with Pb all game long. And, you know, had an ice mana debt to Pb from earlier. Nothing wrong with holding to prior diplo...

[Azoth]

PB has been a great empire-builder, a great diplomat, a great general and usually at least 2 steps ahead any of his opponents

PB has been a great empire builder and diplomat, no doubt. Breaking out from one of the worst starting locations, no river+beside the sea+next to a rush civ, took a lot of skill. In military matters, he seems to be the only player who has switched from an SP to MP mindset. Remember when Bob was blown away by PB's "Fabian tactics" in taking out Rosier the Fallen? That was nothing special on PB's part: he left a few expendable units in his city with his main stack on a road just out of sight, a common enough tactic in MP BtS. PB's latest move was well-executed but his military strategy was fairly straightforward. In FFH, winning stack-to-stack combat involves doing as much splash damage as possible, then sending in any expendable summons, and finally cleaning up with 'real' units. It's a simple formula...

Absolutely. How on earth would PB have won that battle so easily without Hemmah and 2 snowfalls????

...which means that PB would have been fine even without Snowfall. If Selrahc had refused to trade his Ice Mana at any price, PB could have relied on any combination of Catapults, Lunatics, Fireball, Maelstrom, Ring of Fire (AV Priest spell), Pillar of Flame (Chalid), Crown of Brilliance (Empyrean High Priest spell), and Fire Elementals (summons that also do splash damage). PB might not have been able to do 80% splash damage, so his cleanup battles would have lower odds (75% instead of 95+%) but he could afford the losses. In fact, Bob would have annihilated PB's army if it was ever in one spot within striking range. Unfortunately for him, PB was never that careless, they were fighting on his territory, and his army had higher base movement speed, so he always had the upper hand.

[Amelia]

...which means that PB would have been fine even without Snowfall. If Selrahc had refused to trade his Ice Mana at any price, PB could have relied on any combination of Catapults, Lunatics, Fireball, Maelstrom, Ring of Fire (AV Priest spell), Pillar of Flame (Chalid), Crown of Brilliance (Empyrean High Priest spell), and Fire Elementals (summons that also do splash damage).

Good analysis.... but sadly, the only thing available to PB was Lunatics or Catapaults, and one Maelstrom or two, or one-four fire elementals, depending on Hemah.

If Selrahc refused the ice mana last minute, PB had close to 0 mages. He would only have Hemah, so yes, 2 Maelstroms can work. Ring of Fire might work, if PB had time to take out the priests. Chalid was out, PB didn't have time to research Empyrean, same with Crown of Brilliance. In fact, the only reason why PB could fight back was because of Snowfall's crazy damage, nothing else will have worked.

Unless PB built dozens of catapaults, which are ridiculously slow and he doesn't have the hammers anyway, or dozens of Lunatics, which have the potential to go mad at any time, there was no other way for him to fight back without Ice Mana.

[Azoth]

Good analysis.... but sadly, the only thing available to PB was Lunatics or Catapaults, and one Maelstrom or two, or one-four fire elementals, depending on Hemah.

Ah, but if Selrahc had made it clear from the start that he wasn't prepared to trade away his Ice Mana, I think PB would have modified his tech path to fit. Snowfall Hemah was clearly a long term plan; I remember PB saying months ago that Selrahc wouldn't be the only one with Snowfall, if he had his way. So, you're right. Take away Hemah from PB now, and he would have been hard pressed to fend off Bob. But if he knew beforehand, I suspect he would have gone Ashen Veil first for Ritualists, then Overlords for Fire Elemental Hemah. Add a couple Lunatics, and that would have got the job done. PB might have lost 10 units, not 1, but he still would have won.

Actually, I think converting to RoK was a suboptimal play, either way. I don't mean founding it - RoK temples are always useful - just converting to it. If you're going to adopt a temporary religion, Ashen Veil is your best bet. Ritualists+Diseased Corpses pack a much bigger punch than Stonewards+SoK. Not to mention: the Infernal Grimoire doesn't require AV state religion. (You can research Infernal Pact, then convert away.) And AV temples are better than RoK temples in settlements: +1 culture from the religion, and boosted scientists with the Great Library.

But Selrahc negotiated away the rights to both his Ice Mana, so it's all moot anyway.

[NobleHelium]

Too bad Hyborem's Whisper is unavailable in MP. Bob taking over one of PB's megacities (I assume one of the noncapitals have AV in it) could possibly have thrown the game back into the air.

[Irgy]

Too bad Hyborem's Whisper is unavailable in MP. Bob taking over one of PB's megacities (I assume one of the noncapitals have AV in it) could possibly have thrown the game back into the air.

Hasn't stopped them from planning to do it:

... then use his worldspell to steal and raze the Ashen Veil holy city, which is one of PB's super cities.

Do you think someone should give them the bad news? It is a game mechanic and all...